We’re super excited to share this episode where we talk with brand strategist and designer Danielle Devening-Limon. She helped us transition from “Jackson Marketing” to “The B2B Mix.” 

Danielle talks with us about the process she takes with a typical client when it comes to a brand refresh (or total rebrand) and walks through some of the steps she takes with clients to achieve their goals with a website redesign.

Want to get in touch with Danielle? She’s most easily reached by email (she gives her email address at the end of the episode). 

About The B2B Mix Show

The B2B Mix Show with Alanna Jackson and Stacy Jackson is brought to you by The B2B Mix agency. Need help with your B2B online presence? Let’s talk!

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Stacy: Hello, Alanna, how are you?

Alanna: Hello, Stacy. I'm doing well. How are you?

Stacy: Oh, listen to that grammatically correct answer, you're doing well.

Alanna: I say good most of the time and then I'm like, I should have said, well, dang it. It's just-

Stacy: Grammar.

Alanna: It feels more natural to say I'm doing good.

Stacy: I'm good. Yes, I do. Well, whether you're doing well, doing good or doing great or even not great.

Alanna: Yeah.

Stacy: Sorry to hear it, but we're glad you're listening. Alanna, why don't you tell our listeners what we are going to talk about today.

Alanna: Well, today we're going to talk about website design and rebranding and refreshing and all kinds of good stuff like that. So, we've got a great guest coming on that helped us with our rebrand actually.

Stacy: Yes. And we recorded the interview already so, I'm giving you a sneak peek. She actually brought up something that maybe some of you, especially if you're small business owners or really intensely tied to your brand, brought up that sometimes these designers and consultants really act like a brand therapist because it can be hard to make these changes. And a lot of what our conversation with this guest today is you're going to hear a lot of tips in general about how design goes, but you're going to hear primarily a lot of story about what our rebrand was like with Danielle, the designer will be talking to and how she helped us make some important moves from Jackson marketing to the B2B Mix.

Alanna: Well, now you stole her thunder on the brand therapy.

Stacy: Pretend you didn't hear it.

Alanna: Let me tell you a little bit about Danielle before we dig into the convo we had with her. So, Danielle Devening Limon, very fancy name, is a multidiscipline creative professional with 20 plus years of experience. She has an enduring passion for crafting and brand strategies and building the technical structures to support them. After freelancing and collecting a revolving list of clients in high school, yes, in high school, she earned a BFA in digital design and technology with an ongoing goal of developing user focused web applications, alongside scalable management solutions. She's found herself placed among front end web designers, as well as backend developers. She joined a Tampa marketing agency as creative director for a few years and then she became a full-time freelancer in 2010, and since then she's had the privilege of working with many individuals and businesses of all sizes in different industries around the world. So, she is very great at what she does and she has a lot of experience. So Danielle, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the B2B Mix Show.

Danielle: Thank you so much for inviting me here. I'm so excited to talk.

Stacy: We're glad to have you.

Alanna: Yes.

Danielle: Awesome.

Alanna: It's been, a little bit in the making, but we made it. We finally got here.

Danielle: We're here.

Stacy: So, we are excited to have Danielle because she has been a big part of our transition from Jackson Marketing to the B2B Mix. And she helped us so much in developing our look and feel and how we went forward with our new brand and our new website. So, we're just really excited to talk to her and let you guys hear what she does with a typical client and what she does with weirdos like us.

Stacy: So Danielle, before you start working with a potential customer or any designer before they work with a new customer for that matter, to discuss a brand refresh or a new design, what are the biggest things that you expect them to have already considered before they reach out to you? Are you okay with a blank slate person going, I don't know what to do, I just know I need to do something.

Alanna: Just tell me what to do [inaudible 00:04:09].

Danielle: It really depends. I know that there's some awareness that the person, the individual or the group have gone through a process where they've determined that they want to change something, maybe because they're changing their business model or they're changing market that they're trying to hit whatever. But it's funny because recently I had a bit of a realization that what I do sometimes is a brand therapy. It's like, yeah, because you think about it and it didn't occur to me until recently, you're asking yourself, who are you? Why am I doing what I'm doing? And what do I want to change?

Danielle: And I think that usually a client arrives at some point in that process realizing that maybe I need to improve something. So, that's, but it depends, sometimes people know that they want to change something and they don't really know how to start. And then other times there are clients who have a very clear vision of what they want. Now, during the process of therapy, that could potentially change or become clearer or more articulated or whatever. So, it just really depends, but yeah, I've come to the realization that it's therapy. [inaudible 00:05:40].

Alanna: So, is that something you're going to start rebranding for yourself?

Danielle: Yeah.

Alanna: I do brand therapy.

Danielle: Yes. Yes. I think I am actually because, the more I dive into that analogy, the more it makes sense because it is a process to really define these things as an organization or even as an entrepreneur, a solopreneur. It's more than the identity, it's a lot deeper than that. It's the story, it's the voice, it's the anchor, it's the plan. And they're usually go hand in hand with goal setting, which I think is probably, that's part of the therapy, that's part of the process, is really identifying what you're trying to get out of your business and what you provide, what you give, what you give to your customers or your clients.

Stacy: I think that's a really good description of what you do but it's what you did for us because I know sometimes we'd be like, Oh, Danielle, we don't know. And you'd be that therapist listening to us, trying to help us in the right-

Alanna: And what do you think? And yeah.

Danielle: Yeah. It's funny and it is truly and, it's funny I also, with every client I learn new stuff all the time. I think that's the ongoing process. But that was something that I realized through our work together, it was a really cohesive and collaborative project. You guys were feeding me ideas maybe without even realizing you were feeding me ideas. So, that kind of interaction, I totally thrive on. So, it was easy for me to, okay. I know what can fit into this? All you might see is a missing puzzle piece but you've given me the rest of the puzzle pieces.

Alanna: Yeah.

Danielle: So it's really, it's a symbiotic thing and that doesn't always happen.

Alanna: Right.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: So, I appreciate it.

Stacy: How do you handle those situations where someone or a company may come to you and be like, okay, we know we need to change, you just fix it for us. Do you have those issues?

Danielle: Yeah. No, absolutely. I have clients like that too, where they're just, they're not looking for a therapy, they're not looking forward to go through a whole rebrand or a whole process, they just, they need something technical or and that's totally fine too. I've learned to be flexible in that way but the projects that I really enjoy are the ones where there's that creative world building and identity building and stuff, that's what I really enjoy, even though I could do the other stuff too.

Stacy: Yeah. So, does-

Alanna: Is it-

Stacy: Go ahead Alanna.

Alanna: I was going to ask, is it more frustrating to work with a client when they are more, this is what I want, don't go away from what I want just do exactly what I want. Or do you prefer to have someone that gives you a little creative license to put your own spin on it and do some things like that?

Danielle: Yeah, though it's, you know what? I'm going to answer this-

Alanna: Very politically correct.

Danielle: As diplomatically as I can. But I find actually the people sometimes who have no candid input are oftentimes the most difficult to work with. Because-

Alanna: They don't know.

Danielle: Because they don't know. And sometimes I realize that part of my job is giving them just something to say no to.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: Really, because otherwise I don't have anything else from them, so I have to coax it out.

Alanna: Yeah.

Danielle: By just giving them an example. And that can go one of two ways. It's one like, Oh yes. Now, I see the direction let's go with that or this makes me rethink the entire thing and now I have a very specific idea of what I want. So, it could go in either direction. But I realize after doing this for so long, I realize that's part of my job is to not just give them the stuff that they think they want but also the option to have clarity or a different direction that they may not have considered. And that could be totally way off base for them. But that's part of what I like about the therapy process is that that gets examined further, it's not just something that I want to stick with this color because I've used it for 20 years.

Alanna: Yeah.

Danielle: There's a real examination of why and how it fits into the short-term and long-term goals.

Alanna: Do some people freak out at the thought of changing.

Danielle: Yes.

Alanna: Their colors that they've had for like 30 years or whatever? Because I know people get very attached and maybe feel like you're calling their baby ugly or something like that.

Danielle: You're right, yeah. Yeah. No, there's definitely that element. I think you're right. We form these attachments. It's like, especially for small businesses, entrepreneur people who it really is their baby. They don't want to change it or they'll be okay changing a part of it, but not all of it.

Alanna: Yeah. Right.

Danielle: And I totally understand that. I'm never going to push somebody and say, you need to change this, this just looks like 1997 type of stuff, even though it might. But I realized that's the thing that they feel confident and at the end of the day, that's the clothes that they wear. And I'm there to guide them and help them but at the end of the day, they're the ones that have to wear it.

Alanna: Right. So, what would be your ideal customer? So, when it comes to working with a refresh or redesign or rebrand, what's your dream customer?

Danielle: I like the collaboration, I like being open-minded, the creative input, similar to what I described before coming to the table with ideas but being open-minded and willing to explore different directions and to go through the examination process of it, that's my ideal. I like that. I think that's the thing that I really love about what I do, is the process of defining those things and yeah, I think it's collaboration, I think is my most favorite thing where I'm not just the labor.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: Even though that's fine too, it's easy. I don't have to get to invested in it, but I like the back and forth input. I think that's because at the end of the day, that's also, when somebody is happy with what we've collaborated on and created and it's something that I want to show in my portfolio, because I have a lot of projects that I don't show because it's like, Oh, that's their taste, that's not really my thing. But when it's something that I want to show people then that's awesome.

Alanna: Yeah.

Danielle: That's not always the goal, but I like that.

Alanna: Right. Well, and sometimes it's specifically what they wanted and it wouldn't necessarily be your take on what you would've done.

Danielle: Exactly.

Alanna: But that's what they wanted. So, you gave it to them.

Stacy: Would you ever walk away from a project if you're just like, this is not going to work. It's terrible. I can't do this for you because it'll ruin my reputation?

Alanna: Oh, yeah. Danielle designed this cycle, it's a throwback to the 1997 and fake.

Stacy: That's retro.

Danielle: I was just going to say, yeah, this is a vintage '90s website. That's a really fun idea actually, you could have a lot of fun with something like that. Yeah, no, I have said no to projects but it's usually for logistical reasons, I can't accommodate a timeline or something like that. I've never been approached with something that I would be really personally opposed to but I think I would probably have a problem with that. But otherwise, I'm pretty open. If somebody has, I'm trying to think of a crazy project that I've been approached about, but I can't think of anything that's recent, but other than that, I'm pretty open. If it's somebody who I don't think I can work with, which again, I haven't experienced that, not saying that I would never experience that, but I don't think I'd say no or I'd try it out for like, okay, let's just try this, see how it works.

Alanna: Right. Let's do a little pilot.

Danielle: Yeah. I think I'd probably be more willing to do that. And then that would inform a decision whether or not to continue working with them. Yeah.

Stacy: Yeah. That's a good way to approach doing those baby steps see if both of you can take it.

Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I think especially for, and that's the thing, I've learned a lot about how to work in different styles of, because whether it's an organization and I have to work with a team of people where I might not be the only designer or the only front end developer or working with individuals, everybody works differently.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: So, but I learned every time, I learned something new about how not just their industry because usually they're experts in their industries, I'm not an ex, I do what I do. I don't.

Alanna: Right.

Danielle: But yeah, it's an interesting process. It is. It's fascinating getting to see how everybody works.

Stacy: Are you primarily on B2B or do you work with some, B2C?

Danielle: Yeah. Mostly B2B-

Stacy: [inaudible 00:16:30], B2B.

Danielle: Yeah. I have done some B2C stuff and I've done some stuff in the entertainment industry too, which is interesting. Yeah. But yeah, primarily B2B. Fortunately, since I've been freelancing full-time since, Oh gosh, it's been over 10 years now, but I've been mainly working off of referrals. So, which I'm grateful for that. But, that means I stay within a segment of an industry, which is fine. So, I'm finally actually just a couple of weeks ago finally started building out my portfolio for the first time in over a decade.

Alanna: Our own stuff gets pushed off to the side.

Danielle: So true. It's the cobblers children who have no shoes thing.

Alanna: Yeah.

Stacy: Yeah, right.

Danielle: Yes. Yeah.

Stacy: Look how long it took us to do this podcast [inaudible 00:17:30]. We've been planning it for months and we're all just busy with our clients and didn't have time to do it.

Danielle: Exactly. No, that's absolutely true. Yeah. So, I'm trying to give my own advice to myself on certain things, which I know is tough to do, but finally building out a portfolio, finally.

Stacy: So, if you had a new customer or maybe pretend you're your new customer building out your website, what's the process that you would generally expect a customer to work through with you like? Design [inaudible 00:18:10], would you have weekly meetings? What should somebody expect when they're going to that rebrand process or even just a new website process?

Danielle: Right. Yeah. So, it depends on the person, on the organization. The first thing that I would want to understand are the goals. The goals that they have in place now and the goals that they want to have in place. And I've learned that everything is based around that. Everything can fall into place once those things are defined. So, if it's more focused on a website, we really have to examine what the website's purpose is. What is it supposed to do? Is it supposed to make an existing process easier? Is it supposed to facilitate a new function or is it, whatever the end goal is, and then work backwards from there.

Danielle: When I first started working with clients, I would start with the design section first because that's where my head was at. I've learned probably working with so many B2B clients that it has to work the other way around. You have to fill in the blanks to get to step one. Start at the end point and then work your way back. That's what I've learned. So, whether it's branding, whether it's a website, whether it's a trade show booth, whatever it is, whatever that end goal is and then we work to step one.

Alanna: So, one of the questions I was going to ask you was, what your ideal working relationship would be. And I think you touched on, it would be more of collaboration.

Danielle: Yeah.

Alanna: Between you and the customer. Are there other things, aside from that collaboration that would make it a good working relationship for you?

Danielle: It's so funny and I'm going to just close this right now. I'm thinking about you guys when you ask me that, because really I had said, you not only, I appreciate it when a client understands their role and my role, and then there's a mutual respect there. I've had clients where they expect me to drop everything and learn new tools because that's what they use.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: Which I'm happy to grow and learn and all this stuff.

Alanna: But you need to know it by yesterday.

Danielle: Exactly. Like, let's make that part of the process because just like they're trying to facilitate business for their customers and clients, I'm trying to do the same thing.

Alanna: Right.

Danielle: So, I think that when there's an awareness of that relationship, that helps a whole lot and thankfully in a B2B sector, that's more common than not, because I think when I've worked with other industries, it's a little bit different.

Alanna: Yeah. Yeah. So, are there some industries that you find it more difficult, like technology versus healthcare or something like that?

Danielle: Those ones.

Alanna: Are there difference across those?

Danielle: If they're B2B, which most of the ones that I've worked with are, they're looking for essentially the same things. They're looking to sell that product or that service. They usually have a pretty good understanding of who their target market is. I think for me, going through the process of really understanding their niche and how that will work, that changes every time. But I'm trying to think about the most difficult industry, I think B2C staff or retail type stuff can be because there's a lot more opinions. I feel like when in those projects, there's a lot of people getting the mockups and stuff like that and they'll have oftentimes differing opinions, which I can't really litigate those and so I just have to wait for something to happen. So, in that scenario, it's a little bit more tricky to navigate but thankfully I've had experiences where it's, everybody walks away happy. So.

Alanna: Yeah.

Stacy: Good.

Alanna: So, switching gears a little bit. When we approached you at the near the end of last year, I think it was, and we came to you, we were just wanting to do a refresh of our brand and our website and then we switched gears on you and said, Oh, let's just change everything. We're going to change our name, we're going to change, we just want to do the whole shebang.

Danielle: Yes.

Alanna: You may have had a little heart attack at that moment when we did that to you.

Stacy: One thing we didn't get that far.

Alanna: We didn't go too crazy.

Stacy: Yeah.

Alanna: Yeah.

Danielle: No, no. It was good timing actually.

Alanna: Can you talk through some of that, how you helped us through that process and all the different things that we went through and your process of going where you start and all that?

Danielle: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was actually, it was really good timing because we were, I think in the early stages of the logo development, so the ideal board was still open. So, it wasn't like we had finalized stuff or anything like that. So, but that's the collaboration that I totally thrive on. It's, Oh, here's some ideas and then you're like, Oh, my gosh, this means we could do something totally different.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: So, but that kind of exchange is exciting, I think. So with that, I remember when we, I think because we were originally, I can't remember if the B idea came before the B2B?

Stacy: It did.

Danielle: It did. Okay. So, it was when it was Jackson Marketing and telling the story with the two Js and telling the story of the content pollinators and with the B and everything like that. And then finding that that led to a new name. And-

Alanna: And that's what I loved about what you did, because I think also because you know us, because we've known each other for years now, you have a little bit of an insight on our personalities-

Danielle: Yes.

Alanna: And then you didn't completely lose Jackson Marketing in it because like you're saying on the logo, for those of you who haven't looked at it very closely, the B is made up of two JS, there's a J on the bottom and then a J on the top to represent the two Jacksons from going from Jackson Marketing to the B2B Mix Show. And I thought that was so cool that you did that and that you-

Stacy: Yeah.

Alanna: You put so much thought into what you do and that you didn't lose who we were and you brought that into it. And I thought that was just such a cool way of doing that. Not everybody realizes that's what happened, but when we talk about it, Oh, okay, yeah, I see that. And it's just a little thing that-

Stacy: But people do notice it though.

Alanna: But people notice it. Yeah.

Danielle: That's fantastic.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: I'm really happy to hear that. This is part of the fun thing about the branding exercises, it's the storytelling. And the more and more I think about everything does come down to stories, right? Whether you're doing sales or whether you're, it doesn't matter. And that's why building your identity, this symbol, this thing that was going to represent what you do, who you are and in this just little thing. So, we have to wrap a lot of thought and intention into it, what is going to communicate? So, I was very happy with it so, I'm ecstatic that you both were very happy with it. So, but yeah, it's the storytelling part of it. And that's the fun part, I think.

Alanna: Yeah.

Danielle: The colors and everything like that and you're right. I cheated a little bit because I knew you guys, so I didn't have to dive deep to understand your personalities.

Alanna: Right.

Danielle: What to convey, the energy, the vibe that you want to give off. And it's funny, it's easy. And I think honestly, this is totally projecting, but I think honestly, even if we hadn't known each other and it was a brand new relationship, I would've been able to get there pretty quickly anyway.

Alanna: Okay.

Danielle: Because you guys are very, it just, it comes off of you.

Stacy: We're quirky.

Danielle: And fun and knowledgeable and articulate and all of these wonderful things that get to make up a really fun and unique brand.

Stacy: So, it really is like therapy. Just thinking about the whole process that we went through because sometimes I'd feel anxious, like, Oh, we're going to change this big thing in our lives. And then I'd look at other people's website and like, they look really serious and buttoned up, are we doing the right thing by being ourselves and making it fun, but I have no regrets, but yeah, it is a scary journey. Even if you know, you're ready for it or whatever it can be-

Danielle: Absolutely.

Alanna: Yeah.

Danielle: Absolutely, especially, I mean, this is something that both of you have this business. I mean, you guys have been doing this for a long time. This isn't a new thing. So, we do get attached but we also use that as a springboard and that's the thing like the branding part of it when we have a new springboard, when we have something that realigns us to the things that we want to achieve, it feels very freeing, very liberating. It is a psychological process. It really-

Stacy: It might not be that crazy for people who aren't owners of the brand and they work at a place, but when you-

Danielle: Right.

Stacy: Build a company and you're going to make this, it is very.

Danielle: Yeah.

Alanna: Yeah.

Stacy: Danielle's the perfect brand therapist. If you need an answer and help you-

Danielle: Yeah.

Stacy: Achieve something really cool.

Alanna: Another thing that you did, which I love is you made it very playful and interactive. So, as you scroll through the pages, something is moving here and there everywhere so, it draws you and that's what I love. Because you can get, just start zoning out when you're looking at a website and scrolling, nothing is catching your eye with these little, it's just subtle, these little movements throughout the website and the images and things like that. And that I love that you did that.

Danielle: Awesome. Yes, I love, and that was the first time actually, your project was the first one that I really got to utilize something like those animated SVGs, which I've been playing with for a while and testing out on other stuff. But I was really excited to see them all over the place and get really, and since we had those in mind, I think from the first or second conversation that we had, it was a seamless integration visually.

Alanna: Yeah. Yeah.

Danielle: So that was cool. But that's also understanding the process where your clients are looking at your stuff and you've got a lot of information to share. You want them to read it? And so, we've got to occupy their attention in some way to be able to get them to look long enough to read it. So, there's a little bit of that user experience process in there for sure as well.

Alanna: Yeah. We had someone who we've worked with before, he didn't realize we had done a rebrand and he was looking to bring us into a new company to help with some things that he's got going on there. And he's like, I went to your site and it was not Jackson, it was completely different.

Danielle: That's so funny.

Alanna: But a good different.

Danielle: That's so funny, yeah. He was expecting to see something else.

Alanna: Yeah.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: But hopefully the new site and the new branding and everything was familiar enough, that the vibe of it was familiar enough to be able to identify, Oh, but this is still them.

Alanna: Yeah.

Stacy: Yeah.

Danielle: They've just done this new thing. Okay.

Stacy: It just looked better, they finally hired a web designer to fix it. Yeah, we're definitely not web designers, we are content people so, getting Danielle to come in and do this was the best thing we could have done.

Alanna: Yeah.

Stacy: Now, I've been involved with other companies that did a web redesign with an outside resource, but I don't think Alanna had ever done that before. And one thing though, that we were both surprised about because it hadn't been my experience before, is that you waited until the end to do the homepage. Why do you wait until the end for that?

Danielle: The anticipation. O.M.G, that was one of the hardest things is like, when are we going to get to see the homepage? When are we going to get? Because that's the money maker, that's the one that you really want to see.

Alanna: Exactly. And that's [inaudible 00:32:54].

Danielle: Yes. Exactly, that's why I've learned to leave it for last because in the past it used to be the first thing that I would go to. Right. But inevitably, while the other parts of a site are getting built out, whether there's a shop in there, whether there's pages, whatever it is, inevitably the homepage will get redesigned because it's Oh, wait, no, we're going to change this structure.

Danielle: So, there's that part of it, the logistical, like, I don't want to redo this page over and over again, but again, speaking about the process, during the process and building out the rest of the site, realized, Oh, this is where we want to take somebody or this is what we want to highlight. So, by building out all the ancillary, the accessory pages first, it gives us an idea of what needs to be highlighted on the homepage.

Danielle: And so, that way we can go into the homepage and I treat it differently. You'll notice, I think we did a full mockup of the homepage instead of, but the other pages we did a general, okay, this section's going to be this and this section's going to be this and then we repeated that throughout. But the homepage was a different formula and it usually has to be because like you said, it's the money maker, it's the thing that people see first. And sometimes it's the only thing they see, they make a decision right away whether or not they're going to go see something else on the site.

Danielle: So, I think I've learned that it has to be very intentional, the homepage has to be designed with the knowledge and having gone through the process of the rest of the site to know where we want to lead them and what we want to highlight. So, yeah. That's why I leave the homepage for last. But you guys aren't the only ones that I've had that reaction from. I get that a lot. So, why do we, yeah. Why do we have to wait to see the homepage?

Alanna: It makes sense. It makes sense though. It really does.

Stacy: Yeah.

Alanna: Because you don't want to double your work by having to recreate it five times or whatever.

Danielle: Yeah.

Alanna: Yeah.

Danielle: Yeah. Which would happen a lot. So, and then by the final iteration, it's usually after the rest of the pages are done anyway. Right.

Alanna: Yes.

Danielle: So it's like, let's consolidate that. Let's really just concentrate on the intention and the goal with the homepage.

Alanna: Right.

Danielle: Because it is like its own, it's almost like its own project in a way.

Alanna: You did a phenomenal job with our life. And we enjoyed working with you, it was fun. And if before we go onto the, just for fun question, do you have any advice for someone that's maybe looking to do a rebrand or refresh or something, what should they do first and what kind of designer should they look for?

Danielle: Oh, that's a good question. Okay. I would say first, get in touch with your goals. Figure out what you want and what you don't want and not just in terms of your brand, in terms of your business, in terms of your growth strategy, in terms of all of that stuff because that just ties into it, it's not an isolated thing. So, get in touch with your goals. And I would recommend looking for somebody who has some knowledge in being able to guide you to those goals, not just giving you some beautiful stuff to look at. Because the beautiful stuff is great, but it's not going to be great if nobody sees it. It's not going to be great if you're not confident about it or if it doesn't match up with where you want to be.

Stacy: Yeah. I think that's good because I know you've added in things in our site that I wouldn't have necessarily thought of like the little quiz at one point where, what do you want to do today? Or what do you need to learn? And it helps take people to the places that are going to be most significant to them and their experience on the site. So, yeah. User experience and that goes hand in hand, what do you want your users to do and feel you need to know what your goals are. So yeah, definitely.

Danielle: Yes, exactly right. That everything is connected. I think a lot of times we get used to seeing how we do operations as businesses as separate departments but everything is so connected. And as long as everything falls in line with the goals, then it's going to work.

Stacy: Right.

Danielle: So, yeah. Yeah. I think that's important.

Alanna: Okay. So, this is the big question. If you weren't helping companies create awesome websites and doing cool designs, what would your dream job be?

Danielle: Oh, gosh, that's so hard because it would change on a daily basis. It really would. Oh, gosh. You know what? Based off of today, I would probably, I would be and I would farm orchids and do stuff to work outside.

Stacy: Oh, that'd be cool.

Alanna: Nice.

Danielle: Yeah. I love orchids and I love working in the dirt. I think because I live most of my life in front of a screen, getting my hands dirty and feeling all the tangible stuff is a really great antidote to it. It's my therapy-

Alanna: Nice.

Danielle: That's something that I totally love. So.

Stacy: Do you grow Orchids now?

Danielle: Yes. Yeah. I've got a small collection probably about 20 or so. Yeah. Yeah, but we're in the perfect place to be able to grow them. So, and they don't-

Stacy: I guess I tried to have one and it just died. I had it on this board growing like air.

Danielle: Yeah. Yeah.

Stacy: And I had Moss on it. So, the roots would stay moist, but not overdo it, but it just, it was okay for a while and then it just was like died.

Danielle: Oh, no. So, the most common thing that kills orchids is over watering. Because-

Stacy: Oh, maybe I did that.

Danielle: Like air plants, you want them to totally dry out before you water them again. So, I end up watering mine maybe every seven to 10 days.

Stacy: Oh, I was over there spraying that moss like, Oh, it's dry.

Danielle: Oh, yeah. There you go. [inaudible 00:40:09]-

Stacy: Of orchids.

Alanna: Now you know.

Danielle: That's the most common way to kill an orchid. That's the most common.

Alanna: I feel like we need the more you know, and then the far thing going across the screen.

Stacy: So, now our listeners got orchid advice and learnt about website design, redesign. All right. Well, Danielle, if people would like to get in touch with you, what's the best way for them to do that?

Danielle: Email would probably be the best way and I keep it pretty simple, just a Gmail address. It's ddlimon, L-I-M-O-N like Bacardi Limon. That's why a lot of people say like, Oh, like Bacardi Limon. I'm like, yeah, guess so, @gmail.com. And I am currently building out my site and my portfolio, it's still under construction but you could go see the mess that it is right now @ddlimon.com.

Stacy: All right.

Alanna: We can include those in the show notes.

Danielle: That's fantastic.

Stacy: Yeah, we definitely will.

Danielle: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Alanna: And we hope that all of you will contact and get in touch with Danielle and just find out more about her and what she does. If you want to get in touch with me or Stacy, you can find me on Twitter at Alanna_jax. That's A-L-A-N-N-A @_Jax. You can find Stacy on Twitter at Stacy_Jax, that's S-T-A-C-Y underscore J-A-X. And if you're not Twitter fans, you can find us on LinkedIn, that's Stacy Jackson or Alanna Jackson, and we hope to talk to you soon.

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